Preventing suicide requires us to talk about it openly. In this episode we'll hear from Victoria, who talks about losing her mother to suicide and how she healed. We'll also learn about suicide intervention with Kris Green.
If you are thinking about suicide or know someone who is, you can reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255.
Preventing suicide requires us to talk about it openly. In this episode we'll hear from Victoria, who talks about losing her mother to suicide and how she healed. We'll also learn about suicide intervention with Kris Green.
If you are thinking about suicide or know someone who is, you can reach out to the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255.
[00:00:00] Anne: Welcome to Mental Health Mosaics from Out North, an arts non-profit located in Anchorage, Alaska on the unceded traditional lands of the Dena'ina People. I'm Anne Hillman.
This episode is about suicide -- what it's like to lose someone to suicide and why it's so important to talk about this issue openly. If you are thinking about suicide or know someone who is, you can always call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255 any time, any day. Suicide is not an easy topic to discuss or hear about. And it's an issue that disproportiately affects veterans and Indigenous men in the United States. But talking about suicide can help people heal.
(music)
[00:00:44] Anne: Victoria Taylor lost her mother to suicide in 2013 when she was in her mid-20s. This is Victoria...
[00:00:51] Victoria: I think the first thing that we have to acknowledge is that relationships between mothers and daughters are often complicated. Um, I was no exception to that. My mom was no exception to that. The only difference I think then, you know, between myself and my friends was that there was a mental health aspect involved.
I think, obviously how I've processed my relationship with my mom as an adult is very different than what it felt like when I was growing up and experiencing it at that time. But, um, Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, my mom was very young when she had me, she was 18. And, um, I think that probably played a little bit in our dynamic as well.
Just, you know, being so young and then having a child, uh, and another person that you have to look out for. But I think, there were times in my childhood where I think that my mom was doing better than at other times. And in those times I have really good memories, you know, of her being, you know, at my softball games or, um, being more present, but they are, they are often overshadowed by the times where I know that she was navigating her mental health and struggling with depression. And then as I got older, um, she also became an alcoholic. And so that certainly complicated things.
My mom did attempt suicide when I was nine years old, um, to the first time that I remember it. And at that time, I don't remember the alcohol being a part of it, but then by the time I was a teenager and certainly in my early twenties, She had developed alcoholism and it was much more complicated.
Um, and, and so much harder to deal with, I think. And I think also when I was a kid, I had the shield of adults. Right. I had my dad, I had my grandmother. And then as I grew up those things weren't so present. At the time, you know, my parents had divorced and so I lived with my dad for two weeks and then I'd go to my mom's house for two weeks.
And the dynamics were completely different at each house. So with my mom, I think that our relationship sort of became as I grew up where I sort of started to take care of her. And that was, that was hard. Um, and I think like, I think once she died, I held on to a lot of the feelings associated with that and it was confusing and heavy.
I know that sounds like such a basic way to describe it, but it was. And when you look back, I think there was maybe some anger that played into it, for sure.
[00:03:36] Anne: I wonder if you remember when you were younger and your mom was in a really dark depressive state. How did you navigate that? What, what became like your role in her role?
[00:03:51] Victoria: I think my mom was doing the best she could for where she was at at the time. And I say that from a place of forgiveness and I'm offering a lot of grace because when I look back at, um, for instance, after my mom's first attempt, right, once she came back from having gone through a mental Institute and some inpatient therapy, once she came back, I think that I think that it was hard for her to be a mom and work on herself.
And I don't think that she could focus on being a mom in the way that we would all like to think that you could be taking care of another person. Right? And I would say that's when I really am able to reflect and see that the dynamics changed and it's so small, but.
As significant as like I was making dinner, you know, and doing those things. And I remember waking her up to take me to school.
But I realized now I think that like she was doing the best she could. You know, and that's why I think that dynamic at my dad's house was so different because I had a curfew there and he was making us dinner. And so that, that in itself was really, um, interesting to, to shift every two weeks in that cycle.
And I think, like my mom was, like I said, she was super young when she had me. And I think that there, as I got older, it was more like friendship, you know, I became my mom's friend and, um, I think there's nothing wrong with that.
Like to be close with your parents, but maybe when you're a teenager, like but maybe not in those formidable years. And certainly when we're talking about like already, I had been sort of taking care of her in that sense and, you know, um, I think the area, it's one thing to be able to sit here and say like we, yeah.
I mean, I, I would make dinner, you know, I would wake my mom up to take me to school. That's, that's very different than. Where, when she would come back, you know, from, from the inpatient therapy or, you know, whatever the situation was, um, not knowing what she needed and not like hearing that, not hearing her verbalize it, or be able to communicate that I think would have, it would have been maybe beneficial to know how we could have supported her, you know, when she did come back and try to get back to normal because obviously like taking care of a kid was a lot to ask.
[00:06:40] Anne: When she came back, were there any extra supports? Was there any, did anyone talk to you about what was going on?
[00:06:49] Victoria: I just remember it being sort of like, well, your mom's sick. She needs help kind of thing. You know? And not just from my dad, I mean, from my grandmother. And, um, I don't, I don't think that we had these conversations about like, what's actually happening here.
I don't know because I was a kid with the first attempt anyway, I don't know if doctors were honest enough, like to say, here's what we see in Angela, you know? And, and here's what we recommend as a family. I don't know if that ever happened. And I've never asked, which is, you know, shame on me for not looking into it more.
But I do remember as I got older and certainly into my twenties, We knew something was wrong, but I don't remember us as a family collectively, saying like, could we go into a family therapy situation? Like what, what do we need to do to give her support? And I think like, as basic as it is having conversations would have opened up so much understanding, I think.
[00:07:54] Anne: When Victoria was in her early 20s, she moved on her own to Alaska from the southeastern United States for a job.
[00:08:03] Victoria: Our relationship at that time, my mom and I had gotten really bad. That's when she was drinking the heaviest that I can recall. Um, and I got to a point where I wasn't checking in calling home regularly with my mom and, The last time we spoke was actually on, um, Christmas Eve, which was also her birthday.
So she, um, that was 2012 and then she passed away in January. And, um, it wasn't a good conversation. I know now that my mom on the other line was not my mom. And I say that meaning, you know, she was in a dark place and, that's wasn't my mom, like that was also, the alcohol clearly was playing into it that night and it just wasn't a good conversation.
And then, um, fast forward three weeks and my dad called and told me that my mom had passed away and, um, died by suicide. So then I, you know, went back to Georgia and, um, I think at first. I think at first, I didn't realize like on the phone, what he was telling me, and then you get back and you realize, but, um, yeah, I mean, I don't think I expected the phone call, but I, wasn't also completely surprised if that makes sense.
[00:09:28] Anne: What was it like to grieve her?
[00:09:30] Victoria: I felt a lot of guilt for a very long time. That was the biggest one. As I mentioned earlier, you know, we weren't our relationship, wasn't in a good place.
And I even now, uh, you know, nine years later, sometimes I question like if my mom were still alive, would we have patched things up? Which would, would we have gotten her more help? What would it be like, how would it be different? I don't know. Those answers. I won't know those answers, but, um, I'm okay with that now.
And for a long time, I wasn't. And I think that the guilt of feeling like, you know, I had turned my back on her and that's a lot to process and it was hard
were you able to talk to people and say how she died or you just.
I was always, actually very open in, in that it was death by suicide. Yeah. I always felt okay to tell people that. And I don't know if it was because of like this pull to help de-stigmatize, you know, I think that that's that word even, you know, growing up.
I, I recall it being just like whispered right. I don't think that we're in that world anymore. Um, at least I'm not living in that world anymore. And so, yeah. I was always able to admit that that's how she died. Um, cause I don't think there's anything. Wrong with that, right? I mean, people ask you say, you know, so-and-so died there.
They ask what happened. And I think honesty is the best approach in that. And I think that it has afforded me to have some really great conversations with total strangers, even, um, I see that as a positive to come out of this.
[00:11:23] Anne: Victoria said it took her five years before she could honor her mother's wishes and spread her ashes. First she had to let go of her own guilt about her mother's death, forgive her mother, and learn to understand how mental health issues affect people and their support networks in a huge variety of ways. She said many things helped her get through the long grieving process including encouraging family members to talk about the way she died.
[00:11:54] Victoria: I know that in the year, since my mom died, um, there have been. So moments, you know, where of honesty in our family that maybe not everyone wanted, but I think that that's really healthy. And for me, that has been supportive right. And having candid conversations and realizing that like, you're an adult at the table now, and you're getting to be treated like an adult at the table, not like.
Sugarcoating it for you. And, you know, does that look like traditional support? No, I don't think so, but I think it is 100%. Um, and I think you can be really responsive to that.
You know, we, when my mom comes up there, they're complicated conversations and, um, we have them, I think, as a family and, you know, certainly I think, um, With my dad who I would, you know, it's so different too, because you know, my grandmother lost her daughter. My dad lost, you know, what I would say was probably the love of his life.
I think he would agree with that too. And then I lost my mom and how we all respond to those is very different. Right. But I think like in at least being honest with each other, there's something, there there's something valid in how we're working through that loss. Even now.
[00:13:14] Anne: For people who are listening to your story and for others who are grieving a person dying by suicide, what would you tell them?
[00:13:25] Victoria: I think that we have to be, oh, aware of timelines being different for everyone. And like, don't try to rush through it. Like. And I say that, meaning that like, you may think that you're through, you know, stage XYZ, but like, you're going to hear a song on the radio one day and it's going to hit you differently.
And the holidays are going to hit you differently every year. And that's completely normal. I think it's like totally fine to embrace that and recognize that, you know what some days are just harder and that's okay. Um, I think I would strongly encourage others to use the loss of their loved one as an opportunity to connect with others.
When you're a survivor of suicide loss, You are United with this, unfortunately it's a large group of us. It's an understanding with strangers that you'll have.
And I, I would encourage you to connect with those. I think it helps you understand what you've experienced, but also what your loved one was experiencing. And that's complicated.
[00:14:36] Anne: Victoria says she still doesn't understand her mother, but she's had to come to peace with that, with all of the questions she still has, and with what she won't get to experience with her.
[00:14:50] Victoria: I think for my own health, I have to be right. I think for a while, I wasn't, uh, and I think that was probably the anger part for me, you know, like realizing. You know, on the search from a very superficial level, you can have those thoughts of like, well, now my mom won't be making like my flowers for my wedding and things like that.
Right. But it's so much more than that. And it really is. Well, like now I don't, I don't get to ask her those questions when I'm ready and that opportunity is not going to present itself. So. Yeah, I have to be okay with that. And a large part of that. And you know, certainly how I've looked at healing is, um, is not being afraid to talk about what happened and my experience, and also recognizing like everyone's going to be in a different situation and everyone's going to experience things differently,
but this is how it was for me. And, that's kind of all I can do at this point.
(MUSIC)
[00:16:01] Anne: Healing from a suicide loss can be really hard, and as Victoria shared, talking about it can help. Talking about suicide can also help prevent people from dying that way. And, no, a discussion about suicide won't put it in a person's mind. Kris Green teaches suicide intervention classes with Cook Inlet Tribal Council in Anchorage. She teaches people how to talk openly and safely about suicide. She started the work for very personal reasons.
[00:16:31] Kris: I came to Alaska in 79, had met and married my husband. Um, and we moved up here and created a life in a family and, and we had been married for 27 years when I got a call.
Well, Mrs. Shibe. I'm sorry to inform you her husband's dead.
[00:16:50] Anne: The news of her husband's unexpected death hit Kris incredibly hard.
[00:16:54] Kris: And it started me, um, on a very challenging path with four teenage sons, two of which were involved in the accident and the trauma. And, uh, there were Hills and valleys with them and I knew I needed to get them to high school. And when they graduated and walked across that stage. Two days later, I found myself on the edge of a cliff.
[00:17:23] Anne: Kris developed a suicide plan.
[00:17:25] Kris: The one thing that stopped me from lining up those pills and reading and following through on the recipe, um, That I had Googled that day was knowing that my son who was living abroad studying would get that very phone call and there would be nobody to help him.
So that's my story, my own very personal story. But I had a grandfather who died likely by suicide prior to my birth, even, and it really changed how my dad parented as a result of. I believe. Suicide has this incredible ripple effect. Uh, he was our family. Uh, Roman Catholic family saw suicide as a grievous sin and my dad could never believe it was suicide and, uh, that he didn't go to heaven.
I've had sister-in-laws several who have died, close friends who have died by suicide, um, uncles who have died by suicide.
So there was, there is this ripple effect of suicide in the community as a result of just the energy of that occurring in the community that people are so desperate that they are so profoundly overwhelmed, that they cannot live life and that they want the pain to go away. They, they want relief from the pain.
They don't necessarily want to die. They just don't want to keep feeling this bad. And that is the story that I want to change. 'cause I know that kindness makes a difference. Talking about suicide makes a difference. Bringing the subject to light makes a difference and having the skills and words and tools to not be afraid to not run and to talk about it can make the difference.
[00:19:34] Anne: Why does talking about it make a difference?
[00:19:36] Kris: People need to be heard. They need their stories to be heard. They need the pain to be elevated. They need to know they are not alone they need to know that there is resources and help out there. That they aren't crazy.
That what is happening is that they are overwhelmed and. And they really don't want to die. They just want the pain to go away. So how do you do that? And when you're isolated, alone, and not in conversation with people or loved ones, or you made some bad decisions and there are consequences for sometimes some bad decisions and people just need to know that there are going to be options instead of trying to, um, kill themselves to avoid pain, the embarrassment, whatever.
Kris says it's really common for people to have fleeting thoughts about suicide. Most people do at one time or another.
you're not crazy to have it because when we get overwhelmed, it is a flight fight or flight response. And. It is common occurrence. It is when people have multiple layers of things, we all have stressors in our life.
We all have things that come along a brand new baby. Wonderful. But to some people not so wonderful, or postpartum depression or. Any number of things, financial distress, loss of a job, end of a relationship, lots of people experience these things. They all contribute to these potential thoughts.
Well, some people just don't have the ability to filter them and to keep stay on the safe side of this. Bridge or dam, so to speak and they fall into what is called the river of suicide. And then they start having more thoughts of suicide and they begin to fantasize or imagine feeling they're getting the relief from the pain.
And once they fall into the river of suicide and they float along and then nobody talks about it or says, you're not crazy. You just need help. You need a lifeline. Somebody will help you if they don't toss that in people just keep on floating down the river until they fall over the edge and then, um, make an attempt.
[00:22:07] Anne: Kris says you can intervene by talking directly about suicide. Focus on helping that person be safe for now. Not for a lifetime, just for now.
[00:22:18] Kris: It's really as simple as I, I really care about you,.
I'm so sorry, you're having some troubles. You look really down. You're saying some things that have me concerned. The hair on the back of my neck is standing up. Like there is something going on Anne, and I'm concerned about you. Are you having thoughts of suicide? That's how you start the conversation.
But there are things when we run into people, Who just needs somebody to ask them to, to, to put it, say the words out loud. Okay. So we're talking about suicide.
Okay. That doesn't scare me. I am not going to run. I will sit with you and stay with you until we can keep you safe for now. Let's figure out what we can do together to disable this plan that you have. To strengthen and bolster your safety plan and where you can go for additional help. If I'm not the person who's going to be able to do that.
[00:23:34] Anne: Okay.
[00:23:35] Kris: So it's keeping somebody safe for now does not mean one. You have to solve all of their financial issues, get them in a new relationship. You certainly can't bring, you know, somebody back from the dead. Um, if that is the, the, um, event that has created this scenario, but you can stay with somebody.
So that number one, they're not alone. Number two, you're willing to talk about it because most people, the vast majority of people don't want to talk about it. They simply run. And then the person is further isolated. I'm I really am crazy. In fact, nobody wants to hang with me anymore.
[00:24:16] Anne: If somebody brings it up to you and somebody says, I'm thinking about suicide, how do you respond?
[00:24:26] Kris: Thank you for trusting me. And I'm not going to go anywhere until we talk about this. And we come up with a plan to keep you safe for now, because you telling me that you're having thoughts of suicide is very serious, but it's, I'm not scared of the conversation and I'm going to stay with you until we figured this out.
[00:24:51] Anne: Okay. Someone once said to me, that one thing she's learned to do is to acknowledge that suicide is a choice. And if you just cut off the conversation, like, no, don't do that. It doesn't, it means you're not listening.
[00:25:07] Kris: Correct. Exactly. If you do not acknowledge that suicide is a choice. Absolutely you are saying you are not listening to me. You are not listening to me. I will only be able to work through this.
If I see suicide is a choice. As well as despite our very best efforts, sometimes people die by suicide. They make that choice. So it is also a mindset that we need to acknowledge that they made a choice for our own healing and self preservation.
[00:25:43] Anne: It feels to me, like you're saying, like you have to acknowledge that it was their choice, so you don't take the blame. You don't go through the, what if I had done X, what if I had done this?
[00:25:53] Kris: Right. You me and John Q public, everybody needs to understand that concept. That suicide is a choice by an individual. Not one we ever want them to make and never encourage somebody to make, but it also relieves us of the guilt and the burden of the what ifs.
I should've, I could've, what did I do wrong? All of those, what ifs that happened in life.
[00:26:25] Anne: You can't take responsibility for a person's choice, but you can do something, even if that something is just sitting there with them.
[00:26:35] Kris: If you are so concerned and they don't want to talk, you just sit in presence and in silence.
It's amazing what silence will do to somebody who is having thoughts of suicide, feeling desperate and alone, and somebody is just going to sit there, not pressure them, just sit in silence and companionship. It's often. I mean, people who are grieving, that's what they need. There is no magic pixie dust.
That's going to help somebody who's grieving profoundly like. I had profound grief. And when I was at my lowest, somebody who just sat with me silently and stayed with me, made all the difference in the world. I didn't need direction. I didn't need somebody telling me what to do. I didn't need someone else's bias.
I just needed to not be alone. And isn't that profound, small acts of kindness can have a profound effect on somebody who's having thoughts of suicide. They don't feel so alone.
If in this moment, you need to feel less alone, please call the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline at 1-800-273-8255. Or, if you are listening to this after July 16, 2022, just dial 9-8-8. You are not alone.
This episode was edited by Jenna Shner, written and produced by me, Anne Hillman, with audio mixing by Dave Waldron. Our theme music is by Aria Phillips. Mental Health Mosaics receives funding from the Alaska Center for Excellence in Journalism, the Alaska Mental Health Trust, and the Alaska State Council for the Arts. You can subscribe to this podcast and also find art, creative prompts, and other resources on our website mental-health-mosaics-dot-o-r-g. Thanks for listening!